ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Models

akoutmos

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

ESP said to leave out chassis parts because they aren't needed.

I asked for proof they were not needed and got none.

I proved they were needed.

akoutmos is butt-hurt about it.

LOL. It'll take more than your psuedoscience to butt-hurt me. I am merely commenting on you inability to properly perform well constructed experiments. Like i said....I will provide a review once I get my car up and running with the product. I'll actually race the part versus bench racing something I don't even own.
 

drax89

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

Most interesting thread Ive read on here in awhile....Seems to be some decent points on both sides of the debate....Curious as to the real world testing review as this was on my list of things to buy.
 

xci.ed6

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

LOL. It'll take more than your psuedoscience to butt-hurt me. I am merely commenting on you inability to properly perform well constructed experiments. Like i said....I will provide a review once I get my car up and running with the product. I'll actually race the part versus bench racing something I don't even own.

Now if you were a professional driver who were consistent enough to demonstrate a repeatable change that would be something. You would also need to ensure no other variables were changed, such as alignment, temperature, humidity, and course layout. A double blind, ABA, test would also be recommended. Six one-minute auto-x runs by an amateur is hardly enough to prove anything.

No, I don't have a laser alignment machine, or a computerized frame rack with a digital measurement arm. A decent body shop will, and could (for a few $$) repeat my test which has no human variable. That is probably the route I would go if I were ESP. My simple test did show that the difference in torsional rigidity was measurably decreased with simple equipment, and can be duplicated by anyone on this forum with access to a few basic tools.
 

ESP.net

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

XCI delete all posts and open your own thread. I do not want them in my thread about a product we have made... This is not the thread to be doing this in. Purchase the product and make your own thread about pro's and cons. Till then it's not a fair showing.

Like I have mentioned... I do not forsee any serious issues or I wouldn't of made the product. This chassis is similar to the 97-01 Prelude even some of the mounts are innerchangable.

The pro's of this product will out weigh the cons 10x...

Tieing point A to point B will obviously make the bond stronger this is common sense... I do not believe they are needed for suspension purposes or will have issues related to the suspension with camber/toe/caster etc. Our unit will not have give like the OEM unit with the rubber bushings. It will be firm.

We do not use the middle cross beam on the below cars. We have sold Thousands, we have a few World Record holders in Drag Racing and good success in Road Racing as well. I have some buddies that are street warriors with 750 whp Accord/Preludes with H motors... that beat on there cars daily! The middle cross beam is not needed.

88-91 Prelude
92-96 Prelude
97-01 Prelude
90-93 Accord
94-97 Accord
CL and Odyssey


Spiker1.JPG


HT2.jpg


RogBB.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f8xebycgfl0

-John
 
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Valet

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

FYI you have to contact a mod for posts to be deleted
 

RedRyder

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

He did. However nothing has been said thus far that is completely out of line, so there was only a reminder to keep the discussion civil.

ESP if this progresses to becoming a group buy, please PM a mod first to request permission to post a group buy thread as per the group buy/vendor forum rules. Thanks.
 
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DarkSideAccord

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

XCI delete all posts and open your own thread. I do not want them in my thread about a product we have made... This is not the thread to be doing this in. Purchase the product and make your own thread about pro's and cons. Till then it's not a fair showing.

Like I have mentioned... I do not forsee any serious issues or I wouldn't of made the product. This chassis is similar to the 97-01 Prelude even some of the mounts are innerchangable.

The pro's of this product will out weigh the cons 10x...

Tieing point A to point B will obviously make the bond stronger this is common sense... I do not believe they are needed for suspension purposes or will have issues related to the suspension with camber/toe/caster etc. Our unit will not have give like the OEM unit with the rubber bushings. It will be firm.

We do not use the middle cross beam on the below cars. We have sold Thousands, we have a few World Record holders in Drag Racing and good success in Road Racing as well. I have some buddies that are street warriors with 750 whp Accord/Preludes with H motors... that beat on there cars daily! The middle cross beam is not needed.

88-91 Prelude
92-96 Prelude
97-01 Prelude
90-93 Accord
94-97 Accord
CL and Odyssey


Spiker1.JPG


HT2.jpg


RogBB.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f8xebycgfl0

-John

i don't see any issues with his postings. I actually see 2 sides debating on the claims of this product. if you have had sold these products with the claims you have made, shouldn't u have the data to back it? Any proper R&D team would measure the before and after in any given situation (daily driving, autoX, etc)
 

chaby_91

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

Please explain like I'm 5
ESP said to leave out chassis parts because they aren't needed.

I asked for proof they were not needed and got none.

I proved they were needed.

akoutmos is butt-hurt about it.

^ Yeah I could read that. I'm asking what problems you think will happen to my car if this bar in installed instead of the stock one. This is neither my knowledge field nor my native language so I'm having a hard time understanding all of this technical information. ESP could also do the same experiment you did and post their results.

Wheel hop may be an issue, for that I would advise redesigning the traction bar system. I could do it. Hell, I could do it in my one car (actually four bike) garage. I won't be doing it for free, though. I already did half his R&D for free. That was just because I'm concerned about the 6GA community members, and I'm plain tired of false claims by vendors.

Then why don't you do it? You mentionned you designed chassis for competition. Take out your drawing board and sell your design to ESP...

I'm really interested in a product that would effectively reduce wheel hop. You do make really good points and I think this skepticism is necessary. It seems to me that ESP may never have considered or even knew about any of this (most of us probably did). They just need to up their game to later chassis designs. It's called moving on with the times.
 

ESP.net

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

1) I do not forsee any issues with suspension on not using the cross beams far as caster, toe, camber etc. The vehicle is similar to 97-01 Preludes.
2) The gains will out weigh the cons
3) The unit is much more ridgid then the sloppy OEM piece with rubber bushings. Thus will help eliminate wheel hop and torque steer. The Front Torque Mount Kit will also help put more power to the ground and improve solid/quicker shifts.
4) The added strength you purpose with the side beams is not significant enough or a must
5) Side beams were not an option and wont be until there is an issue. They were in the way and would be in the way.

I have never liked the idea of the cross beams to begin with as stated in the earlier Accords/Preludes they are not used. They are flimsy. Only reason people wanted them was for a skid plate. I don't care to have something hit it and bend whatever our attatchments are on our bar.

I have always ran our units on my cars even my dailys. It is a night and day difference H23V DC2 just feels sloppy and not all the power is getting to the ground. I took it off once to experience the difference.

As Akoutmos said he may share his results with you when he is ready.

Chaby I don't need anyones help on knowing what works, what doesn't, I have a pretty good idea on knowing what I am doing :) I have been doing this for over a decade now. I have more knowledge then most Master Mechanics. The cars I have built ground up is a bit of a list. I have a knack for show car quality detail/function.

This chassis far as the Front Cross Member and Radius Rods are concerned is nothing new. I have been doing this for almost a decade now. It took me less then 20 hours from start to finish in total time to produce it. Some companies take 3 years...
 
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akoutmos

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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

Now if you were a professional driver who were consistent enough to demonstrate a repeatable change that would be something. You would also need to ensure no other variables were changed, such as alignment, temperature, humidity, and course layout. A double blind, ABA, test would also be recommended. Six one-minute auto-x runs by an amateur is hardly enough to prove anything.

No, I don't have a laser alignment machine, or a computerized frame rack with a digital measurement arm. A decent body shop will, and could (for a few $$) repeat my test which has no human variable. That is probably the route I would go if I were ESP. My simple test did show that the difference in torsional rigidity was measurably decreased with simple equipment, and can be duplicated by anyone on this forum with access to a few basic tools.

Completely agree with you. I am no AutoX pro and can not drive on the same level as the nationally competitive folks. But what I can offer is insight into how the car behaves given the new components. What I can't offer is how many seconds it will shave off your lap. Wheel hop for example was something that I could easily induce during my events. Given that there are now solid bearings holding the LCAs in place, I would imagine that I won't have any more of those problems.....but that is one thing that I can verify at my next event.

In addition, if you would kindly write up a full procedure for the experiment that you performed (college chemistry style please :p), I would be more than happy to reproduce the test with both the ESP system, and the stock system. Hell, if I am feeling ambitious enough and have the time, I'll recreate the ESP bar in SolidWorks with the specifications from ESP (if they would be so kind as to provide them for me) so that I can run some simulations on the design. Recreating the OEM Honda part with be very difficult given that it has a very complex geometry and the two halves of the front part of the k-member is spot welded together (if i recall correctly). But the SolidWorks simulation should give an idea as to how structurally stable the ESP design is.

In addition, one thing that I did not even think of was the fact that the stock k-member is attached to the frame rails with bushings. The ESP bar is a solid mount to the frame rails. That will reduce the flex that you noted during your testing.

Just to get the record straight, I don't have a personal problem with you, and I always enjoy a serious engineering debate (which we really don't get here that often). I just have a problem with some of the allegations that you have sent ESPs way, without actually trying the product. Seeing as I will have both products (OEM and ESP) I can honestly and without bias run tests on both. Your concerns are valid, I just feel like there is a little tunnel vision on your end, and you are not addressing some of the points that are being brought up from the other side.

Unfortunately I have to wait for my car to get back from SpeedFactoryRacing so that I can run these tests. Before my abilities as a mechanic/tuner/engineer come into question. The only reason I am not working on the Accord for this iteration of its life is that I just moved to Seattle city from the East Coast for work, and don't have the time (because of work) or space (live in a apartment building) to put the accord together myself. That and I left my workshop and tools on the east coast :(. Your setup looks simple enough, so this is something that I can do in the parking garage of my apartment complex. Like I said, give me a full procedure, and I will faithfully follow it for the OEM part and test again with the ESP setup.
 
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