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Old 01-05-2018, 02:52 AM
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frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

the whole time of owning my h22... I've never wanted to build it due to the whole piston situation... now, I dont really want to build the piss out of it but I do want to get another h22. although I want to get a type s or euro r... that being said. I want to throw the h23 crank and rods into it to bump the compression up to 12.1 :1. my thing is.. while im in there, shouldnt I put new piston rings on but you dont want to throw new rings on scored piston walls. right? so what do you do to freshen up the h22s walls since you cant ball hone em like most other motors. lol is there a company out there that is capable and reputable in doing such a task?
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:38 AM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

From Hondas march 2001 service news:

Honing Fiber-Reinforced
Metal Cylinders
All S2000s and 90 and later VTEC and Si Preludes
have cylinder liners made with fiber-reinforced
metal (FRM). You don't need to hone FRM
cylinder liners unless the cylinder has deep
vertical scratches that run the full length of the
bore. But if the cylinder liners have light-colored
spots or flaking, you must replace the engine
block.
If you need to hone FRM cylinder liners, follow
these guidelines:
Use only a rigid hone (not a ball hone) with
GC-600-J or finer honing stones for nonferrous
metals. Make sure you use an oil type honing
lubricant.
Keep the pressure between 200 and 300 kPa (2
and 3 kg-cm2, 29 and 43 psi). Hone between
45 and 60 rpm using a 60-degree cross-hatch
pattern.
Do not hone more than 20 cycles. Clean the
honing stones every five cycles.
After you're done honing, thoroughly clean
the engine block of all metal/abrasives. Wash
the cylinder bores with hot, soapy water, then
dry and oil them immediately. Never use
solvent; it will only redistribute the grit on the
cylinder walls.
It's OK to have some light vertical scoring and
scratching of the cylinder bores if it isn't deep
enough to catch your fingernail, and if it
doesn't run the full length of the bore. But if
the scratches are too deep, bore and hone the
cylinders to the next oversize specification.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:06 AM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

I didnt like the FRM sleeves for this reason. Its really easy to mess them up but you can mess up iron sleeves too. Somone said the FRM sleeves need more TLC because theyre softer. That being said I know they are more expensive to repair and replace. This is why I opted to to get the F20b rather than get another H series. They make good power but they seem to be much harder to work with. I dont know all this factually because I dont know everything about metallurgy but I do know everyone thats done H series builds on other forums all said the same thing.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:50 PM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

that was actually really good info! lol thank you guys!

alright so if Im understanding it correctly... you dont necessarily have to hone them at all as long as they are in good order! So say I bought a euro r or type s motor and I wanted to swap the crank and rods from a h23 I could? I mean without any prep to the cylinder walls unless like it states that it has vertical scratches that run the length of the cylinder wall.

thank you so much guys for the help! damn I've missed this community!
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:45 AM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

Originally Posted by 98acclude View Post
that was actually really good info! lol thank you guys!

alright so if Im understanding it correctly... you dont necessarily have to hone them at all as long as they are in good order! So say I bought a euro r or type s motor and I wanted to swap the crank and rods from a h23 I could? I mean without any prep to the cylinder walls unless like it states that it has vertical scratches that run the length of the cylinder wall.

thank you so much guys for the help! damn I've missed this community!
You could assuming stoke, bore, piston diameter etc is all good and you wont run into any clearance issues. This is one of those times where you need to pay attention to all the math. Also keep in mind oil squirters and journal size. All these things play a part and honda designed all their motors this way for a reason. Once you start putting stuff together that was never meant to be its kind of hard to tell if it will work because it might on paper but once you have everything together it might not work.

Look at all the G23 builds. There are very few that are still around because there were a lot of people who though it was just as easy as slapping a head on it. A lot of these motors ran great for about 10,000 miles and then exploded. Not saying you dont know what you're doing, just offering advice. Also you usually dont have to hone the cylinders if the cross hatch is still visible. It wouldnt hurt to do it but why take the risk if you dont need to. If there is a glaze on the cylinders its usually a good idea to get rid of that with the honer. You dont need to go all the way down the cylinder. There should be lines where the piston rings stop riding the wall, ie discoloration. Look for that so you can avoid unnecessary damage. Lastly, it wouldnt hurt to grab a micrometer to check for taper or out of round at this point for extra safety and insurance. Piston to wall clearance is important when installing new pistons lol. Unless you like lost compression and piston slap.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:03 AM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

Originally Posted by 98acclude View Post
that was actually really good info! lol thank you guys!

alright so if Im understanding it correctly... you dont necessarily have to hone them at all as long as they are in good order! So say I bought a euro r or type s motor and I wanted to swap the crank and rods from a h23 I could? I mean without any prep to the cylinder walls unless like it states that it has vertical scratches that run the length of the cylinder wall.

thank you so much guys for the help! damn I've missed this community!
Why would you swap parts? Just replace the entire motor.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:43 AM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

Originally Posted by BlkCurrantKord View Post
Why would you swap parts? Just replace the entire motor.
that's the plan.. my current h22a4 has seen better days and I want to swap it with a type s or euro r (rather the euro r for the intake manifold), but I wanted to up the compression by putting h23 crank and rods in going from 11.1 to 12.1 with that I wanted to run stage 2 cams and the correct valve train...

Originally Posted by capsidx View Post
You could assuming stoke, bore, piston diameter etc is all good and you wont run into any clearance issues. This is one of those times where you need to pay attention to all the math. Also keep in mind oil squirters and journal size. All these things play a part and honda designed all their motors this way for a reason. Once you start putting stuff together that was never meant to be its kind of hard to tell if it will work because it might on paper but once you have everything together it might not work.

Look at all the G23 builds. There are very few that are still around because there were a lot of people who though it was just as easy as slapping a head on it. A lot of these motors ran great for about 10,000 miles and then exploded. Not saying you dont know what you're doing, just offering advice. Also you usually dont have to hone the cylinders if the cross hatch is still visible. It wouldnt hurt to do it but why take the risk if you dont need to. If there is a glaze on the cylinders its usually a good idea to get rid of that with the honer. You dont need to go all the way down the cylinder. There should be lines where the piston rings stop riding the wall, ie discoloration. Look for that so you can avoid unnecessary damage. Lastly, it wouldnt hurt to grab a micrometer to check for taper or out of round at this point for extra safety and insurance. Piston to wall clearance is important when installing new pistons lol. Unless you like lost compression and piston slap.
I appreciate this info! really! This job may be a bit over my head at the moment but that's why we research first right? and you could be right... this may be something that doesnt last for very long but it does seem interesting tough! Im going to continue my research further before pulling any triggers! I may back out of doing anything with the bottom end and just do a small mild build on the head and call it good! Im not really out to be the fastest anymore as I just want to make it more fun to drive and a little quicker! :P
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:33 AM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

Originally Posted by 98acclude View Post
that's the plan.. my current h22a4 has seen better days and I want to swap it with a type s or euro r (rather the euro r for the intake manifold), but I wanted to up the compression by putting h23 crank and rods in going from 11.1 to 12.1 with that I wanted to run stage 2 cams and the correct valve train...



I appreciate this info! really! This job may be a bit over my head at the moment but that's why we research first right? and you could be right... this may be something that doesnt last for very long but it does seem interesting tough! Im going to continue my research further before pulling any triggers! I may back out of doing anything with the bottom end and just do a small mild build on the head and call it good! Im not really out to be the fastest anymore as I just want to make it more fun to drive and a little quicker! :P
Good thing you realize we all have limits. I see too many guys new to the scene eager to do a hybrid build only to get stuck mid way with limited info online. Most people dont realize how much work comes with changing an engines configuration. Changing out internal parts is hard enough because you need everything to be spotless, but changing them with different parts is what seperates engine builders from people like us lol. I know where my limits lie and thats why I havent done one of these builds. I dont know enough and i'm not afraid to admit it. I can do swaps all day and could probably retro fit a completely different engine in my car like a toyota motor but thats about as far as I go.

Research IS hella important, especially if its going to make any job you do that much easier. I dont research swaps, I just do them but if I ever need help I always check online because someone somewhere has done the swap. As far as stroking and stuff I find there's limited info on this as most of the guys doing it are putting these engines in civics, running 10's and have no time for forums unless they need help lol. Glad I could shed some light on your project though. Not saying you're not capable, just saying when tackling something like this, EVERYTHING needs to be considered.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:01 PM
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Re: frm sleeves are a PITA.. h22 block prep.

Originally Posted by capsidx View Post
Good thing you realize we all have limits. I see too many guys new to the scene eager to do a hybrid build only to get stuck mid way with limited info online. Most people dont realize how much work comes with changing an engines configuration. Changing out internal parts is hard enough because you need everything to be spotless, but changing them with different parts is what seperates engine builders from people like us lol. I know where my limits lie and thats why I havent done one of these builds. I dont know enough and i'm not afraid to admit it. I can do swaps all day and could probably retro fit a completely different engine in my car like a toyota motor but thats about as far as I go.

Research IS hella important, especially if its going to make any job you do that much easier. I dont research swaps, I just do them but if I ever need help I always check online because someone somewhere has done the swap. As far as stroking and stuff I find there's limited info on this as most of the guys doing it are putting these engines in civics, running 10's and have no time for forums unless they need help lol. Glad I could shed some light on your project though. Not saying you're not capable, just saying when tackling something like this, EVERYTHING needs to be considered.
No man I appreciate it! I mean I've built b and d series motors but I've never built my own motor... I'm positive I could handle the head but I dunno if I have the skills / balls to tackle that block... I'd hate to buy a new motor only to ruin the bottom end just to start all over and I've always prided my car on being reliable and modded... cause I've had many friends with builds that don't last long because of something very minuscule but that's how motors are... there is a lot of physics and geometry put into these things that took years to concieve... so I may just go with a stock bottom end and work on the head... I live in the middle of the us and I don't know anyone anywhere close that has knowledge on the h series that I could even take it to to have it done... I don't mind paying for it to be done. I just don't know anyone or anyone reputable that has h series experience. Guess the next best thing would be a crate motor! XD who has money for that **** in their beater accord?! Haha
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