Lighting pet peeve.

SupraGuy

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So I've been going over all of the lights on my Accord, and am having trouble with headlights.

Sure, 9005/9006 lamps aren't exactly rare, but it seems that ones that aren't "high colour temperature" are. I don't want anything with much higher a colour temperature than maybe 3800K. It seems that 5000K is the new norm. I despise it. I don't WANT "whiter" lights, I want ones that are useful.

The human eye is pretty easily fooled. The "whiter" light looks nicer for everything that the beam falls on in nice, clear conditions, but it's deceiving. You can't actually see better. Maybe you're more capable of discerning the difference between "Raspberry pearl" and "Chrysler red" on that car ahead of you, but you cannot actually see better just because the light is closer to daylight, since it's not really daylight out there.

Higher colour temperature is basically more blue light. Sometimes this even comes at a cost of less overall light by filtering out light that isn't blue. This is generally a bad idea for night time, for a few reasons:

1. it actually hurts your night vision. The pupil doesn't react to all light equally. People who need their night vision use red lights to read maps because the red light does not cause the pupil to contract, leaving the eye able to catch more light once the light is turned off. Blue light affects pupil constriction the most, so the more of it you project, the more light you need in order to be able to see as well. This might be fine for the area inside the actual light beam, but it kind of sucks for the sides of the road where there may be animals and pedestrians who may come out onto the road in front of you.

2. It diffuses, refracts and reflects more easily. This means that it's terrible in the fog, rain or snow as it will reflect back at you, making you less able to see what's on the other side of the fog, rain or snow. This also means that it's more likely to blind oncoming drivers as it's more difficult to keep within the beam pattern. You probably already know that many European style fog lights are amber, which is exactly for this reason. (Here's an experiment for you. At night, look for a neon sign that has red and blue in it. At a distance, like across the street, take a good look at it, and see if you can bring the blue into really sharp focus with your eyes. You should be able to do it with the red fairly easily, but probably not so much with the blue. This is in part because of rayleigh scattering, and in part because of the eye's nighttime reaction to blue.)

On a show car, those whiter lights do look nice. That "HID" look does add a certain sharpness to the looks of the car. I know people insist that they can see better, but objective measurement doesn't bear this out. I'm not looking for the Accord to be a show car, it's my daily driver, and I want my lights to help me see at night. To that end, if I'm going to replace my headlights, I want ones that are most likely to achieve that.

So yeah... Those "HID Blue" headlights are a pet peeve of mine. HID conversion kits in standard housings aren't much better, and worse in the case where the car loses the ability to have high/low beams, and the beam pattern is screwed up because the reflector doesn't work with them. I hate seeing them in oncoming traffic, or behind me on the freeway.

Anyway, I'm sure that I'll find good regular lights. It's just more work than it should be.
 

RedRyder

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Just pick up a set of standard Sylvania Silverstars, they are OEM color (3800-4100k) and are basically the same as what came on the car from the factory even though Sylvania tries to convince people they are whiter and brighter (they aren't). Personally I like the Philips CrystalVisions, in my experience they last longer than Silverstars and are much cheaper. They are 4300k if my memory serves me correctly, and the color was maybe a hair whiter than OEM bulbs...the color from stock to the CrystalVisions was negligible at best.

You get pure white at about 5000k, and you get white with a hint of blue at 6000k. 5000-6000k yields good output, it's when you get into the blue like 7000-8000k that headlights become useless. I'm always amazed at the people who have 12000 and 14000 pink/purple headlights. :rolleyes: It also depends on how the light is being projected (and if they are aimed correctly). I.e. if you want great output I would recommend doing a headlight retrofit.

Anyway if you like the OEM color then just buy a set of OE replacement bulbs, I see them everywhere.
 
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guytv

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That is so true. I retrofitted my headlight and I tried 4300k,5000k, and 6000k. I tend to see a lot better with 4300k, but I like the looks of 5000k. Overall, I still see alot better with hid than halogen.

Also, there is a point of what kind of projectors a person has on their car. I seen some cars where it brighten up the road very good with 5000k.:)
 

ryan s

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there's no mention of HIDs producing over 3x the lumens of a halogen bulb, it's not a 1:1 discussion of color temp or anatomy (nor the differences in individual color perception)...and that's also disregarding most "colorful" halogens simply have a coating on them which reduces their output further.

I used toshiba HIRs in my 6th gen for years. they are noticeably brighter than stock with a similar color temp, but can't touch the 5500k HIDs in my 8.5 coupe's projectors. they are decent enough that i skipped a retro. in fact, a retro would be worse for other drivers due to the blue/purple aberration at the cutoff line, aka the flicker effect, caused by HID projectors (and the fact that i know how to make custom shields which can introduce red, green, and yellow if desired :lawl:).

"HID kits are bad, you can't see shit with anything but yellow lighting" is such a blanket statement. the 6th gen was "meh, not the best idea" with a drop in kit, the 8th gen coupes are just fine.
 

Nam1911a1

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I like HIDs and I do see better with them.


I'll agree about the blanket statement.

There is a reason high lumen flashlights use a white light which you can SEE MORE at night. Albeit the color rendition may not be like daytime but whiter light is brighter than yellow.
 

BlkCurrantKord

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I personally prefer around 4300k-300k in my lights but I tend to lean more towards the yellow/amber light spectrum as it's easier for me to see with my blue eyes.
 

SupraGuy

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Kind of the responses that I expected to see.

I managed to find some decent OEM replacement ones, so I'm good for my car. I just had to go somewhere that wasn't a regular "Auto Parts Store."

For all of this, of course it's personal choice. I agree that 5000K is very nice, white light, but there is a matter of physiology where that affects your night vision for anything that isn't directly lit by the lamp. for what IS directly lit by your headlight, of course you see it better with more light projected by the lamp. The problem is that sometimes what you need to see isn't directly lit by the headlight.

I never said "you can's see **** with anything but a yellow light." I said that blue light affects your night vision. As a statement, that is correct, and demonstrably true. I then stated reasons why I want to be able to preserve my night vision while driving. Those things may not matter to you, you don't drive where I do. Maybe you don't drive where people in dark colour clothing, or animals might be on the roadside. Maybe you never drive in rain, snow or fog. I do, so for me, lights that allow me to better avoid dangerous situations when this happens is important.

@Ryan S: First, the blue tinted halogens are the ones that I'm really complaining about. Second, more lumens in the beam actually makes the problem of what's outside of the beam worse. If you're driving where there's wildlife in the ditches, and want to be able to see it, more lumens on the road isn't going to help. If you're driving in an urban or even suburban environment where there are street lights it isn't so big an issue. I drive through long stretches of unlit highways on a somewhat regular basis. You want those HIDs, knock yourself out, but if you're shining them in my face, then know that I'm swearing at you inside my car.

@Nam1911a1: How do you define "see better"? As in better colour definition? Can you see further? What about what you aren't shining the light directly on? if you like your HIDs, that's fine, but again, if they're shining in my face, I'll be swearing at you in my car. Flashlights use white light because people like to be able to discern colour, and for some situations, being able to see colour is important, so people like to have one light that lets them do everything. People who need their night vision use red lights. Pilots use red lights to read their maps, because they're going to be somewhere that it's simply not possible to actually light up everything that they need to see, and they want to preserve their night vision as much as possible.

You, as a human being, like to look where there's light. You will be most comfortable looking at the area that your headlights directly light up, and ignoring the area outside of that. A brighter headlight is only useful if the beam pattern covers a wider area. (Thankfully most modern HID systems do exactly that, with a wider dispersion pattern covering more of the areas that I take issue with.) An HID retrofit system gives (at best) exactly the same beam pattern with about 1.5X the amount of light. While Ryan S's statement of 3X the lumens is true on a per watt basis, retrofit systems are typically about 1/2 the wattage -- 35W instead of 65W. This draws more attention to the road directly in front of the car, and less to the sides of the road where potential hazards are.
 

Nam1911a1

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I define see better as a back to back comparison of what I can see and define in front of me with the light. HIDS are physically brighter which lets me see more clearly what is within the beam.


As for night vision it all goes out the window unless you have super bright red LEDS for headlamps. Amber light still screws up your eyes when adjusting to total darknes.

As for seeing on the peripherals. It's up to the reflector/optic to disperse that light. Not the light source itself
 

ryan s

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Kind of the responses that I expected to see.

I managed to find some decent OEM replacement ones, so I'm good for my car. I just had to go somewhere that wasn't a regular "Auto Parts Store."

For all of this, of course it's personal choice. I agree that 5000K is very nice, white light, but there is a matter of physiology where that affects your night vision for anything that isn't directly lit by the lamp. for what IS directly lit by your headlight, of course you see it better with more light projected by the lamp. The problem is that sometimes what you need to see isn't directly lit by the headlight.

I never said "you can's see **** with anything but a yellow light." I said that blue light affects your night vision. As a statement, that is correct, and demonstrably true. I then stated reasons why I want to be able to preserve my night vision while driving. Those things may not matter to you, you don't drive where I do. Maybe you don't drive where people in dark colour clothing, or animals might be on the roadside. Maybe you never drive in rain, snow or fog. I do, so for me, lights that allow me to better avoid dangerous situations when this happens is important.

@Ryan S: First, the blue tinted halogens are the ones that I'm really complaining about. Second, more lumens in the beam actually makes the problem of what's outside of the beam worse. If you're driving where there's wildlife in the ditches, and want to be able to see it, more lumens on the road isn't going to help. If you're driving in an urban or even suburban environment where there are street lights it isn't so big an issue. I drive through long stretches of unlit highways on a somewhat regular basis. You want those HIDs, knock yourself out, but if you're shining them in my face, then know that I'm swearing at you inside my car.

@Nam1911a1: How do you define "see better"? As in better colour definition? Can you see further? What about what you aren't shining the light directly on? if you like your HIDs, that's fine, but again, if they're shining in my face, I'll be swearing at you in my car. Flashlights use white light because people like to be able to discern colour, and for some situations, being able to see colour is important, so people like to have one light that lets them do everything. People who need their night vision use red lights. Pilots use red lights to read their maps, because they're going to be somewhere that it's simply not possible to actually light up everything that they need to see, and they want to preserve their night vision as much as possible.

You, as a human being, like to look where there's light. You will be most comfortable looking at the area that your headlights directly light up, and ignoring the area outside of that. A brighter headlight is only useful if the beam pattern covers a wider area. (Thankfully most modern HID systems do exactly that, with a wider dispersion pattern covering more of the areas that I take issue with.) An HID retrofit system gives (at best) exactly the same beam pattern with about 1.5X the amount of light. While Ryan S's statement of 3X the lumens is true on a per watt basis, retrofit systems are typically about 1/2 the wattage -- 35W instead of 65W. This draws more attention to the road directly in front of the car, and less to the sides of the road where potential hazards are.
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there is just so much incorrect in here, I can't even.

7 miles of my 15 mile (each way) daily commute is a 4 lane 70mph highway that is totally unlit aside from one overpass. i live in wisconsin, which is just south of ontario, canada when looking at latitude. we have snow, rain, fog, freezing rain, and any and every kind of animal. i literally just watched a hawk kill a sparrow outside and i live in the middle of the city.

that you don't understand how a projector's output looks or that 35w at 3200lm is brighter than 65w at 1100lm in spite of HIDs lower output wattage but continue to preach is confusing to me.

since my car is lowered and has projectors that are properly aligned, i create less glare than most reflector setups. the width argument is immaterial here until we discuss swapping projectors. mine are adequate, unlike ebay "halo" headlights or DC integra projectors. LS430/460 projectors wipe the floor with any and every other setup in width. those have almost 180 degrees of coverage, basically 6 lanes of light. mine do about 4, the 6th gens much less than that.

the worst "best" setup i've ever driven with was my dad's old 2G TL with decade old D2R bulbs. due to color shift, they were less than the 4300k rating and i couldn't see anything at night in anything but perfect weather. the 5500k in my car are way better. my dad's 1.5G TSX is ok, those lights just dont seem very intense for some reason. the kelvin rating alone isn't everything.
 

SupraGuy

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Right. And I quite clearly stated that I also care what's not in the beam. I also stated that I care about performance in fog/rain/snow, which I can also demonstrate is better with less blue light.

For night vision, pupil response is tied to wavelength.

For beam pattern, light housings that were made for HIDs (Like your 8th gen) tend to have a wider dispersion. I even posted that above. Retrofit HID lamps don't (usually) change the reflector, meaning that they don't have appropriate beam patterns to utilize more light, meaning more spotlighting on the road, and more glare for oncoming drivers. there are also a LOT more cheap-arse crappy HID setups out there that often even lose high/low beam ability than there are proper retrofits that have appropriate lens/reflector setups.

If you like the look of your HIDs, that's all good. That's your preference, and you have your reasons. I also like the look of them, but in terms of performance and keeping me from hitting a deer or worse, a moose, on the highway, I am safer with a warmer colour. I'm far more interested in being able to tell that the animal is there than I am in being able to tell you exactly what colour it is. for my Supra, I've got nice brilliant white lights on it. (E-Code beam pattern with about 40% increased lumens.) I drive it in summer. At this latitude (about 53 deg north) it barely even gets truly dark at night, sunset isn't until after 10:00 PM for much of the summer, and I hardly ever drive that car in the rain or fog, and never in the snow. In the Accord, I'll be driving that over 20km of highway in the dark on my way to work, and back again in the dark after work, often in snow, and many times in fog or rain.

I just figure that people ought to be aware that those "whiter" lights are definitely all about looks, and not about safety.
 
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