J30A AT to MT swap in the cards?

[jbl]

What's going on everyone? Think I've posted a few questions here in the past (I don't remember anymore) but I know I've lurked pretty hard. FWIW, I have a 1999 Accord Sedan with the J30 and an AT. This past weekend she saw some track time at NJMP with the 24 hours of lemons. We got the car for a song, so that's what we ended up using.

http://ronman.org/pics/lemons/nj12/img_0711.htm

We didn't get far in terms of upgrades:
cone filter off of a WRX
ATF cooler
cherry bomb after the cat
20mm rear sway off of an '03 CL-S
Dunlop Star Specs
brake pads and hardware

If any of you are familiar with the Lightning circuit, we turned a best of 1:38.115. We were geting hosed out there in the straights, but she managed to hold off some much faster cars in the esses. ~360 laps with an avg. overall speed of ~70mph and we finished both days PLUS Friday's practice session.

We'd hit the incline after T7 (the 90* lefthander after the bridge) and she'd start slipping out of gear right away. I never felt (or saw) that we were getting very high into the RPM range. I imagine we missed a TON of things prior to the race to get this thing running somewhat proper (like reading about leaving the transmission in D1...I feel like we were in "limp mode"). We'd only hit 105mph TOPS in the straight and it'd want to slip out again right before T1.

Obviously, we gutted this thing hard to put the cage in which included a LOT of electrical connections. Essentially, if the car didn't start, we'd plug it back in. If it did, it stayed out (we're not mechanics).

I want this car to be faster. Not, "holy hell that's scary" fast, just do what a V6 on a 5-600lbs diet should do, and I feel like it should be a couple of ticks above 105.

So there's the AT to MT swap...

WOW. I'd be willing to try it, but wow...that looks intense. PLUS we still have to keep a budget here, so it's likely that a swap is not going to happen. I was quoted $500 for an MT out of a '99 Accord V6, and that onlly included "pedals and clutch assembly". I imagine there's a computer swap involved as well?

As I said, I'm nothing more than a weekend warrior as a mechanic (and I'm the mechanic of the team, WTF), so anything would have to be somewhat tame in terms of what we can do.

What are your thoughts and suggestions?

I know this is also a very broad question with no real direction, but I'm hoping to find that with you guys. The Drive Accord forums have been helpful and friendly, but 9 times out of 10, the questions get deferred to here, so, here I am.

Thanks for all of the answers to the questions I never asked (I do search too, so it's not like I'm just asking and hoping someone will hold my hand through an answer). Everyone definitely helped me and a couple of buddies have one helluva weekend.

 

[dharding413]

Search. There's a new thread on this topic almost every week. There have been a number of guys on here that have done this, so I would start by looking through their threads and maybe sending some PMs. The list of parts you'll need is here. This thread was made awhile back, but I think it's still accurate. Good luck.

 

[Mikey]

98-02 Accords NEVER came with a MT. They were only AT. The 5speed from the 4-cyl Accord will not work.

You'll need the 6-speed out of a TL or CL. If you can get your hands on the CL/TL car as a whole and it still has a good motor, go ahead and do the J32 swap as well.

The MT swap shouldnt be too pricey, but seeing as how you're a "weekend warrior" you might want help from someone who's done it or who knows their stuff.

 

[jbl]

Thanks, guys.

dharding, I'm definitely doing a lot of searching, but figured a little interaction wouldn't hurt either. For this car/race, searching forums has done a huge service for us, but the ideas and advice that come from the users when answering a question directly have helped us the most. Regardless, I'll be in the search function if you need me.

Mikey...this is one of the instances where no matter what I searched, I'd have probably missed that. I'm not a "Honda guy". I love them (including my own, but 8th gen), but don't have the background knowledge that many of you posses, thus, asking and not just searching. I guess that's why his number seemed low to me though...because he was dead wrong!

I've read about the J32 swap as well, but with Lemons, we face a very strict budget. I'm not sure I could do both things (if even one) yet. At the very least, we were going to do the timing belt (149k on the clock) and subsequent repairs that come with tackling that job, i.e., seals, water pump(maybe?), etc.

A friend of mine has done a lot of work to his '03 CL-S, including the clutch. I imagine he's going to be getting a call soon.

 

[RedRyder]

From the first post it sounds like $500 was a big deal to spend...so I'll go ahead and say this swap is not in your future. The cheapest 6spd you can use is from a 7GA V6, and you'll pay at least $700 for a good one. And there are so many more parts you need. Also there are a lot of things that will pop up where you'll have to go out and spend more than you budgeted, it just happens with a job as custom as swapping a transmission. It's just one of those things you have to go into being willing to spend a good deal of money on, and not limit yourself.

Honestly for the intentions you and your team have, I'd scrap the Accord and find a more friendly platform. That all sounds like fun though, cool hobby.

 

[Mikey]

Not the Accord in general, just the 6G.



For a little more than a nice 02 v6 6G, an 03 or 04 7G v6 MT can be had.

 

[jbl]

Yeah...like I said, this is for Lemons, so the budgets are strict. Our mechanical abilities leave even more to be desired. This car literally came to us for free, but after everything we've done to it, it'd be a PITA to see it go and have to start over again. The rollcage, for one, would need to be disassmbled and reassembled in something else, something we're not the best candidates for trying. It's not a bolt-in either, so it'd likely be a couple of weeks worth of work (for us, with our schedules, abi9lities, etc.).

So, back to the drawing board. It seems like if we want one or two more races out of this thing, we're dealing with the AT. I've seen a well documented DIY showing the rebuild of a 6gen AT, so I may watch that again to see what I can get from it ($$, difficulty, etc.). In the end, it doesn't seem to me like 105 is the top of that car...I imagine we spooked a couple of sensors.

Like I said, I'll be searching away, but would love some constructive input from you all as well. Let me know if you have any questions about the car or the race.

 

[RedRyder]

The thing is, you can do all you want to help the tranny, but the best way to keep it going is to not drive the car hard and baby it…which is the exact opposite of what this car is being used for obviously. So that makes things pretty hard, haha.

Look into a rebuild, that’s your best bet at getting its best performance, at least for a short while. Hook up a tranny cooler, spend some money on a high grade fluid if there’s one that will maintain a lower temperature (not sure if this exists). Are you guys actually moving the shifter manually among the 4 gears? That’s a big no no.

How does the budget work? I mean I assume you get a certain allotment, and you allocate some to purchasing a car, and the rest to making it track worthy. If you get the car for free, don’t you have more money to work with? Or couldn’t you just spend slightly more than whatever’s legal and just not report it? Lol

 

[jbl]

The thing is, you can do all you want to help the tranny, but the best way to keep it going is to not drive the car hard and baby it…which is the exact opposite of what this car is being used for obviously. So that makes things pretty hard, haha.

Yeah...she's taking some abuse out there. I--unfortunately--have been driving auotmatics for way too long. At 50k miles a year, you get used to what they want to do when and let them do it for the sake of preservation. We tried to bring as much of thata to the track as possible. Seeing as how it's an endurance and not a sprint, if the car wanted to drop down a gear, we'd drop the engine RPMS and just deal with a slow turn-out.

Look into a rebuild, that’s your best bet at getting its best performance, at least for a short while. Hook up a tranny cooler, spend some money on a high grade fluid if there’s one that will maintain a lower temperature (not sure if this exists). Are you guys actually moving the shifter manually among the 4 gears? That’s a big no no.

I think that's the best bet for us in terms of A) "relative ease" of doing it, B) we can then get to the timing belt, which as far as we know, has never been replaced and C) it's kind of silly to rebuild an auto when an MT is obviously what you want for racing, but like I said, this is Lemons, not SCCA. As far as shifting through the gears, I wasn't, but found out one of the guys was after we finished. I don't know why they thought they were more capable than one of the most complex inventions of all time.

How does the budget work? I mean I assume you get a certain allotment, and you allocate some to purchasing a car, and the rest to making it track worthy. If you get the car for free, don’t you have more money to work with? Or couldn’t you just spend slightly more than whatever’s legal and just not report it? Lol

You know, if I'm honest, I'm not 100% sure about how it works after it's been raced. I do believe that we're given a number to work with, but it's going to be chump change. We can get away with a lot, but dropping $3-5,000 is well beyond "a lot". We'll probably have to do some creative budgeting, but in the end, we're not trying to be cheaty either.

She'll still run. In fact, I'd be willing to bet she had another one in her. It won't be fast and it's likely she'd get slower, but outside of the lack of power and possible transmission slip, it didn't hiccup on us once. We are running an ATF cooler with Redline ATF high temp. synthetic right now, BTW.

 

[RedRyder]

Gotcha. Then, other than a rebuild, there really isn’t anything else to do. So do what you can to keep the tranny going, keep running the car, and when her time comes… just let her go out in a blaze of glory. lol

NOS is cheap... lol