Caster & Camber off FR compared to FL

[l34merik]

Hi guys,

so after I got new wheels on and I lowered my car (over four finger gaps to 2 finger gaps) on some Ground Control Coilover sleeves, I got an alignment. My Front left side is still within spec for everything but my Front right is way off compared to my left side. Specs are listed below:

Camber| Caster |Toe
F left------ [-.02 ]----------------[2.0]----------[.01]
F right -----[-1.3] ----------------[3.3]----------[-.05]
OEM range [-1to1]------------ [1.8to3.8]------ [-.08 to .08]

Now it pulls to the left very very slightly. Is there a reason why the front right is so off compared to the left? I got it aligned at two different firestones already to make sure (lifetime alignment package)

I thought on our cars, you can pretty much slam it without needing a camber kit. Should I get a camber kit or try to replace something that might've been bent? The tech recommended me to get a camber kit and it would be good. That kinda seems like a bandage fix to me if the right side is really bent somewhere.

I've been thinking about getting either SPC or ingalls ball joint but I'm worried that it would hit my fender liner or other parts down there. Or even get the Ingalls Front Control Arm that does +1 to +4 but then it would throw my front left into a positive camber


I guess toe is fine but I've been driving 40-100 miles a day and it gets annoying having it pull and I just got new summer tires so I don't want them wearing out too soon. What should I do? Thanks in advance


PS, they were willing to sell me ball joints for the front at $157.73 EACH. I looked up the part number 67125 ball joint and it came back as SPC. That's still a huge markup seeing how I saw them at $140 for both sides. I talked to one manager and he said it was an inhouse brand. Another manager said it was a Mogg brand. What the hell, they're just bull****ing with me and trying to hide that it's a SPC kit right?

 

[l34merik]

Oh and labor for the front is $183 and rear is $102. I plan on just doing it myself, or is this something really hard that I should let them do it. Most kits say install time is .8 hours per side.

 

[finch13]

1. I believe your right lower control arm is bent towards the rear of the car or you have worn strut rod bushings (they control front/rear lower control arm movement). I aligned my car last week myself and my caster specs were 2.4º on both sides. Your camber adjustments are off and they are non adjustable. Park on a flat surface and measure from the jack points to the ground, they should be the same side to side, if not that can affect camber. Seems like something is bent on the left side as well, possibly the lower control arm.

2. Caster specs being off can cause pulls, probably isn't the toe. Tires can also cause pulls.

3. You don't need a front camber kit. I've been driving with -1.3º camber up front for 40k miles and haven't had a tire wear issue up front.

4. As far as I know, SPC = Eibach. I bought an SPC rear camber kit and it came in an Eibach box...

5. The upper ball joints are easy, they are listed as "non serviceable" meaning you need to buy the entire control arm. I believe upper control arms stamped with a "B" are the non-serviceable ones. I haven't done a lower one, but keep in mine you'll probably have to remove the entire knuckle to get a ball joint press in there.

Here are my alignment specs from last week:
Before | Actual
-1.1 | -1.1 Camber LF
2.5 | 2.5 Caster LF
-0.01 | 0.03 Toe LF

-1.3 | -1.3 Camber RF
2.4 | 2.4 Caster RF
-0.31 | 0.04 Toe RF

-1.0 | -1.0 Camber LR
0.58 | -0.08 Toe LR

-1.1 | -1.1 Camber RR
0.64 | -0.05 Toe RR

For anyone passing through looking at these numbers, 1.22º of total toe in the rear will wear out 600 treadwear tires in 20,000 miles (8 month)

 

[l34merik]

Thanks for the reply, seems like you're always on here Finch. Thanks for being on the forums and helping newbies like me out.

Oh sorry I guess I phrased the above kind of weird. Yea I know toe wouldn't cause pulling and caster would. They told me as long as toe is within spec, my tires should be fine as long as I rotate often. It's just annoying that it pulls. I'm thinking there could be 4 different solutions I could do.

1. Tires being bad would be an easier/cheaper replacement since they're new. Would it be worth it to switch out to my snow tires and get an alignment to check if my new ones are bad? I thought tire stuff was check during the balancing/mount process?

2. Another thing is when I lowered my car on GC, I set the sleeves to the same "thread" around all the sides. After I put the wheels back on, the space between the fender and the wheels weren't the same on each side. I had to adjust the threads differently so they would be the same space. I read that doing that is ok. Should I set all the threads equal and get an alignment again?

3. replace the suspension parts instead of using a "bandaid" camber kit.

4. Buy the Ingalls Camber control arm, the bent suspension won't hurt anything. Camber kit sounds easier than troubleshooting and replacing the lower control arm.

I'm thinking about trying 1 and 2 first and then still debating on 3 or 4. I take it Finch thinks I should do option 3 and I'm leaning towards it. Can a get a few more voices to help confirm what I should do? I'd really try doing this all myself because I already spent so much $$$ on this new suspension setup that I can't afford to put too much more into it.

On a side note, the car handles so much better with my new setup than before. It almost feels like a new sporty car, even though it's has the same amount of power.

Oh and this is for you Finch:
Can I ask why did you adjust the RF toe like that? Before it was at .04 but after -.031. Wouldn't The .04 would've been better matched with the .03 Toe LF better? Same question on the rear too, moving from -.05 to +0.64. Wouldn't you want as close to 0 toe as possible?

 

[Accord_V6_400m]

Yep bent lower control arm wouldn't help, just replaced mine, it was definitely bent. The wheel was pushed back toward the rear of the car.

 

[l34merik]

hey accord v6 400m,

how long did it take you to replace it? Also where did you get your replacement from and how much was it?

I'm thinking of just going to eBay for some used oem parts. Probably stay away from the aftermarket ones because we all know how bad ebay suspension parts is. If it makes more since to buy new, Majestic Honda has it for $125.10 + shipping. It's illustration 7
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...+(V6)&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=FRONT+LOWER+ARM

is that the right part?

 

[finch13]

Thanks for the reply, seems like you're always on here Finch. Thanks for being on the forums and helping newbies like me out.

Oh sorry I guess I phrased the above kind of weird. Yea I know toe wouldn't cause pulling and caster would. They told me as long as toe is within spec, my tires should be fine as long as I rotate often. It's just annoying that it pulls. I'm thinking there could be 4 different solutions I could do.

1. Tires being bad would be an easier/cheaper replacement since they're new. Would it be worth it to switch out to my snow tires and get an alignment to check if my new ones are bad? I thought tire stuff was check during the balancing/mount process?

You can balance them all you want, you can't change a shifted belt. Rotate the front tires to the back and see if the pull goes away, you can also swap over to the winters and see if the pull goes away. The nice thing about new tires you can get them replaced under warranty.

2. Another thing is when I lowered my car on GC, I set the sleeves to the same "thread" around all the sides. After I put the wheels back on, the space between the fender and the wheels weren't the same on each side. I had to adjust the threads differently so they would be the same space. I read that doing that is ok. Should I set all the threads equal and get an alignment again?

No. They should be on the same thread AND have the same fender gap. Something is probably really messed up and a decent alignment shop should be able to tell you what is wrong. For example, Tires Plus aligned my car and said everything was gravy. A few months later I took it to a family friends shop, L&R Automotive and they were the ones who pointed out my lower control arm was a good 2 inches farther toward the rear.

3. replace the suspension parts instead of using a "bandaid" camber kit.

This is your best bet and probably cheaper too. Really, it's likely ONLY the lower control arm that needs replacing, but I would do both just in case.

At the shop I work at, if you bring a car in that's misfiring and the plug and wires look bad I'm going to sell you those before I do further diagnosing. The chance of just that fixing the problem is a lot higher and the overall cost to the customer is a lot cheaper in the end.

4. Buy the Ingalls Camber control arm, the bent suspension won't hurt anything. Camber kit sounds easier than troubleshooting and replacing the lower control arm.

The camber kit won't fix your caster or your ride height issues, so you'd be taking a gamble.

I'm thinking about trying 1 and 2 first and then still debating on 3 or 4. I take it Finch thinks I should do option 3 and I'm leaning towards it. Can a get a few more voices to help confirm what I should do? I'd really try doing this all myself because I already spent so much $$$ on this new suspension setup that I can't afford to put too much more into it.

On a side note, the car handles so much better with my new setup than before. It almost feels like a new sporty car, even though it's has the same amount of power.

Oh and this is for you Finch:
Can I ask why did you adjust the RF toe like that? Before it was at .04 but after -.031. Wouldn't The .04 would've been better matched with the .03 Toe LF better? Same question on the rear too, moving from -.05 to +0.64. Wouldn't you want as close to 0 toe as possible?

I must have mixed up the numbers. The LF and both rears were way out of spec, the numbers closer to 0 are the after measurements.

hey accord v6 400m,

how long did it take you to replace it? Also where did you get your replacement from and how much was it?

I'm thinking of just going to eBay for some used oem parts. Probably stay away from the aftermarket ones because we all know how bad ebay suspension parts is. If it makes more since to buy new, Majestic Honda has it for $125.10 + shipping. It's illustration 7
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...+(V6)&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=FRONT+LOWER+ARM

is that the right part?

I've bought lower arms from rockauto.com before, no problems. It's really only 2 bushings and a cast arm, nothing too fancy.

 

[l34merik]

Hey finch,
thanks for the response.

Sorry so much crap have been coming up lately so I haven't had much time to update or work on my car. I looked at rockauto and they didn't have any oem parts. Should I really be ok with aftermarket suspension parts that doesn't have a major name? On rockauto, there's three parts that would fit but I don't know which brand would be good. I would hate to have to replace it again in 3 months.

DORMAN Part # 520624 More Info {OE Solutions; Includes Bushings (Ball Joint Not Incl) #51355-S1A-E00, 51355-S84-A00}59.79

DEEZA Part # HNH215 More Info {Premium Quality; Includes Bushings}82.79

RAYBESTOS Part # 5071221 More Info {Professional Grade}82.99

which one should I get?

 

[l34merik]

Ok so I changed my ground controls to be the same "notches" on all sides and it seemed to fix some problems and the fender gaps are even on all sides still. (Dumbass's on some civic forums, recommending to change the springs to uneven heights to make the gaps match. Others told me it might not be even at first but it evens out after some driving and they're right.)

Got an alignment again and here are the specs:
|side|-----Camber----caster----toe
LF-------|-.09|------2.4-----|-.07|
RF-------|-.09|------3.4-----|-.06|
LR-------|-1.2|-------na-----|.08|
RR-------|-2.4|------na------|.05|

The car still pulls slightly to the left. I already brought a Rear camber kit and a Front Right lower control arm. The camber kit I'm going to put in and get an alignment but I'm not sure about the front control arm.

Giving the newly found information on alignment after fixing the spring heights, do you think there could be a different problem than the front right lower control arm? I would hate to spend so much time replacing the FRL control arm and finding out it was something else.

Reading ToyoJake's thread, I saw another post by Finch that made me think maybe it's something else. Caster is greater on the right side so shouldn't it pull right instead? Could it be the (-2.4) camber on the RR that's causing my car to pull? It's not a hard pull at all and the car drives smoothly. It just gradually pulls to the left.

Any suggestions on any other underlying problems with my suspension? I'm going to put in rear camber kit and rotate the tires to the back and get my next alignment this coming weekend.