starts and dies and s/b 00-024 hot soak

Discussion in 'Accord Tech' started by cl206, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. cl206

    cl206 Well-Known Member

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    Alright, Im gonna just put this out there, maybe someone can confirm, deny or just add to this.

    I have the 2000 V6 coupe and here are the symptoms:
    In the morning, or on a cold engine (like after work), the car always starts and runs fine, but on a warm/hot engine, if I shut it off and let it sit for like 15-20 min, it would sometimes start and then stall. (I still have yet to pinpoint the exact number of minutes it takes for the fuel to vaporize and thus causing the stall) To get it to run, I would have to gun the engine right away (right after I crank) and rev it to like 1k+ so it wouldn't die right away and then quickly put into gear and just DRIVE. I KNOW I AM NOT ALONE WITH THIS!

    BUT if i let the engine cool for like 30-45 minutes (this wait time is still subject to verification haha) the car would start and run normally.

    I have DONE A LOT OF SEARCH on this and here are my findings:

    1) It is not the battery, I just got a kirkland one two days ago and even checked it with a multimeter to make sure it is good and fresh (10/10 manu date)

    2) It is not the main relay b/c I just changed it about 6-8 months ago with a new OEM

    3) It is not the ignition switch because my car would never die after it is in gear driving

    4) It might be a dirty IACV, (which would be a cheaper fix and I will try to clean that out later this week.) I actually am starting to doubt this b/c if it is dirty and clogged wouldn't the starting issues be more often? Also my tach doesn't fluctuate as much.

    If not any of the above, I am leaning toward the service bulletin 00-024

    http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/acuramstr/2008-11-06_190220_heat_soak.pdf
    I think I might be able to change it myself. (Maybe just bring the new and old PCM to honda and have them rekey/ reflash to new keys) and then install it myself! Any comments on this?

    Anyways basically what it says is that the type of winter fuel blend we have here has a lower boiling pt and after a drive where the car gets to operating temp, if you stop and shut the car off for like 15-20 mins, the residual fuel in the rail lines would vaporize. If you try to start the car again within the 15-20 minutes, it would start and then die unless you do the gunning trick I mentioned or simply wait 30-45 minutes for the car to cool.

    BTW since there are no fuel in the rail lines, it might also cause the check engine light to go on (because there is an incorrect mixture in the cylinders) causing misfires all over. I got that yesterday and just cleared them. I ain't about to change my spark plugs or coils just yet. I will update this if they keep coming back. (Having your own DTC reader is a GOOD thing)

    But for the time being, I will try and always let the car cool for like 30-45 minutes and we will see. If this works, I might just live with it haha b/c the hot soak 00-024 job at the dealer is like very expensive and I am out of warranty. I might try to get honda goodwill.

    I hope the above sheds some light for someone, before they change things that might not be the culprit (I am not saying the hot soak is 100% right b/c I just discovered this last night but I will check it out.)

    Also the reason I think you need the whole FPR Kit mentioned in the 00-024 SB (contains a new fuel pressure regulator and a new PCM) is that the new FPR has a bigger opening to contain more fuel at a higher pressure and the new PCM has updated software and stuff to work with that. What is interesting is that this issue mainly affects the 2000 v6 accord so I am included but I am out of the damn normal warranty.

    Yeah my car always starts on a cold engine so that can be a sign to carry around maybe some dry ice HAHAHAH
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  2. BadgerType

    BadgerType Resident ***hole

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    honest to god i ahve been trying to figure out the same thing on my granddaddy's old ford pickup. i have swapped almost everything but it will not cranks without pedal influence when the engine is warm
     
  3. cl206

    cl206 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, in the meantime I will just test it by keeping track of how long the car has been off before starting and just keeping a closer look on this pattern of behavior. If I am convinced thru my own observations I might just shell out the bucks and get this done, because I am the original owner of a 2000 v6 with 126000 miles and I don't plan on ridding this car anytime soon.

    Also, one thing I might try unless someone points out not to, is maybe trying the midgrade gas and see if that matters. Does anybody have any knowledge of how I can raise the boiling temp of the gas (like adding some kind of additive) so that the fuel won't vaporize as quickly in the lines?

    I am feeling a little better now that we have a lead. I hate taking the car to a mech and not being able to reproduce this because intermittent problems are the worst to diagnose and we just might have caught this SOB!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  4. cl206

    cl206 Well-Known Member

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    Alright update for anyone reading this. This issue mainly occurs with the 2000 V6 and my VIN does fall into the range.

    I can't believe I never noticed this before but it does appear confirmed that on a cold engine, or one that has been sitting for about 45 minutes at least, it starts. Just yesterday I tested this by letting my warmed up car sit for 20-25 minutes and sure enough it started and died. After another 20-25 minutes of just resting it started.

    When the same thing happened on Monday (before I discovered all this) I also had to gun it to get it to start but it was rough in the beginning (gas wasn't initially in the cylinders in the right amount b/c it vaporized in the lines) and I had like CEL for 6 codes, all misfires, so I cleared it and it still hasn't come back.

    I have already ordered the new updated fuel pressure regulator kit
    (P/N 06161-P8C-A01) and will get honda to install it on Nov 6th (they have to upload the immobilizer info from the old PCM anyways). It is expensive but I am confident this should finally fix it and will post an update of whether this works or not.
     
  5. CDsDontBurn

    CDsDontBurn Well-Known Member

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    i get this problem too and for the longest time i thought it was something to do with the coils. later on, i came across this "heat soak" thing and it shed a whole lotta light on the matter but i can't afford the real fix. i just do the "fix" by revving up the engine whenever this happens to my car, lol.

    i do wonder though, can one do all of the work in the PDF link you provided except for the PCM part and still have this working correctly? or does the PCM have to be done as well? i ask because if all the information is copied over from the old PCM to the new PCM, wouldn't the issue remain anyways???
     
  6. cl206

    cl206 Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure you need the new PCM because the new fuel regulator increases the fuel pressure and thus increasing the boiling point. The new PCM is designed to work with this. I believe the new software in the PCM allows the injectors to work in better sync with the new FPR so you are not running too rich or something like that.

    ALSO I just read the 00-024 bulletin again and if you look at instruction
    #21: Upload the immobilizer information from the old PCM into the new one with the PGM Tester...

    you are only transferring the key/security information to the new PCM.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2010
  7. CDsDontBurn

    CDsDontBurn Well-Known Member

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    Dude, totally did not read that part about the key information being the only thing transferred over. So, i guess the new PCM is a requirement.
     
  8. Charles_Orlando

    Charles_Orlando Member

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    Wow, I am having the same problem on my 4cyl F23A4. I thought it was a battery. This sheds some new light. Using a higher octane gas did not help. I have found that my car is running in limp mode withOUT a CEL popping on the dash. Thanks for the information. :bowdown:
     
  9. cl206

    cl206 Well-Known Member

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    The service bulletin is for 2000 v6 4dr or 2dr but you can easily test it by driving the car until it gets warm or to operating temp, enough for the fuel to "boil" in the lines. Just to be thorough in the testing, I would drive it for a good 30 minutes and then shut it off for 20 minutes. If it starts and dies right away, this most likely is the issue. I have already duplicated this situation purposely at least 3 times recently and I am really confident this will fix it.
     
  10. CDsDontBurn

    CDsDontBurn Well-Known Member

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    any idea on how much the stealership would charge for this fix?

    And how much is the PCM alone?

    And say we got a PCM from an '01 or '02 at a junk yard, would it be worth the risk of using a used PCM to attempt this fix with a used one?
     

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