FINALLY!!! My basement just got really messy!

[Russianred]

Darton - 3mm ductile iron sleeves, flanged. *Will NOT do R&D for custom sleeves regardless of price. They just don't do it as there is no demand for it. Not even the custom option.

Golden Eagle - 10-15mm ductile iron sleeves, straight design. 10mm is way too large for an open deck, or most any other type of sleeve as well. Our block just won't handle that size.

My shop's house sleeves - 2.54mm ductile iron small small, and 3.7 regular thickness, straight design. Same material as all brand name sleeves. Pressed in, held from falling through by bottom lip which comes cast stock on our blocks. They will not move up, as the head will be holding them in, and strongly clamped down with ARP hardware.

I recommend you find a local shop and make sure they do it correctly, after you do your own research and know what to keep them in check for of course.

I considered getting Darton sleeves, but 3mm sounds a bit thin, even compared to the 2.xx mm thickness of our stock sleeves. I am choosing to go with my house 3.7mm regular thickness sleeves. This way I will have insurmountable sleeve integrity, while still retaining the integrity and solid structure of the cylinder casting into which the sleeves are pressed in. It's really a lot of reading, common sense, and research as far as what your chosen shop can and can't do. Make SURE the shop has a good reputation with EVERYONE.

I really hope this helps you out, because it took me more than a few hours to research all the info I gave above, on hold, waiting for calls back, and talking on the phone, as well as reading extensively.

I do not have information on Benson or ERL sleeves yet. At this point, I'd recommend looking at quality and putting cost aside. If you can get the same spec sleeves from your 'small shop' as the bigger manufacturers, then you can have the SAME results as long as the shop presses them in correctly. It is ALL brand name. All the ductile iron sleeves are the SAME, unless obviously they are different styles such as straight, flanged, or MID (modular integrated deck - turns your block into a closed deck). If you can get same spec sleeves from your shop as you can from any of the companies, choose your specs as far as thickness and how it compares to what you will be boring out, so you retain the wall thickness. If you can score these fitting spec sleeves, the shop will get and do them for you dirt cheap. The sleeves are like $15 each from my shop I think, and $50 a cylinder to sleeve.

- Nikita

 

[hotaccord243]

Sorry for the long post, but to fully explain everything there is no shorthand... Hopefully it's organized enough and clear for you.

Nikita,

I think your on the right track, although it seems there could be a couple of misconceptions (although I could be wrong). When you talk about the Darton sleeves being 3mm thick you are speaking of the press in "replacement" sleeves not the full on pressed in sleeves.

Are you going with replacement sleeves pressed in after the cast iron sleeves are honed out or are you going the full press in deal where they bore out a majority of the block?

OP,

-Install Process/Product Differences-
The pressed in sleeves are installed in the following way and are the way to go:
-Remove old cast iron sleeves and bore out old aluminum material so there is only a small lip on the bottom end of the engine block
-The new sleeves are pressed in and take over the old sleeves and aluminum material. They have a small lip that catch on the remaining material to keep them from sinking past the tolerances.
-The new installed sleeves are then milled to the proper deck height
-The sleeves are then honed down to correct tolerances for the pistons you are using (hopefully new by now)
-Sometimes they will mill the block to fit a guard depending on the application or setup
-hone and cross hatch the sleeves and deck the block

The head then holds down the sleeves and the lip on the bottom of the new
sleeves hold them from sinking or walking in the block.

Some basic understanding between the differences of the sleeves:

-Straight Sleeves-
Straight sleeves from my understanding (I've never heard them called that) are replacement sleeves. This means they hone out your old cast iron sleeves or the first small ring that you see on a bare block and replace that portion of it with keeping the aluminum sleeve guides in place.

-Flanged Sleeves- (This is pictured in my signature with the optional block guard/deck support)
Flanged sleeves would be where they hone and bore out approx. 75% of the bottom end and press in a new sleeve that replaces the whole sleeve/aluminum portion. The flange will then sit on the bottom portion of aluminum that is left on the block and that's what holds it in place.

-MID-
MID (modular integrated deck) sleeves have a flange on the bottom as above, but with a flange on top that convert it to a closed deck vs an open deck with coolant valleys in the top flange. (takes up the space between the sleeves and the main structure of the block. These are unfortunately un-available for our motors due to the super low demand. The only way to combat this unavailability of these is to use a deck support/block guard that further prevents your sleeves from walking around (movement under higher boost, pressure, and compression ratio.

-Shop-
The shop is key because there are many out there that do alot of sleeving but have never done it on an f23. It is similar to the F22 but slightly different and if never done before, details can be overlooked fairly easy, so picking a shop is key (speaking from experience).

-Cost-
As far as sleeving goes this is the heart and soul of your engine. DO NOT skimp on this cost wise. This is where you get this wrong, you WILL be starting from scratch the next time. (again speaking from experience).
All sleeves are for the most part the same, there are different R&D that does go into the sleeve design and that is the difference between companies such as Golden Eagle, Darton, and many other knock offs. There is a difference. Go with Golden Eagle or Darton hands down.

-Manufacturer information- (ERL/GoldenEagle/Benson
Here is information about ERL Performance's (which I have) Superdeck I install, theory, etc. This is an excellent option. It didn't work for me earlier when I tried it, but let me know if it does not I can always shoot you and e-mail with it or just try downloading it from the site:
ERL Superdeck I (This setup is pictured in my signature).


Benson does a wonderful job also. Their sleeves are proven and a fantastic job. This is their site:
www.laskeyracing.com

-Reviews-
I was originally going to go with Golden Eagle Sleeves but they were taking to long to install them (months to be exact). I have only heard rave reviews about them also, nothing but good things except for the turnaround is lengthy. Then I had unknowingly ordered the "replacement" sleeves from Darton and found out after they were installed (which the guy did it wrong and cracked the block anyway) And finally decided upon ERL Performance out of Indiana. They had an incredible turnaround time and did an amazing job. I have only heard rave reviews from everyone on Benson also. I know the main shop that i was working with (Laskey Racing who is the main installer for Benson) they shut down for a while when i was looking at them because the owner Mr. Laskey passed away, so I stopped looking into them further because of the sad news.

This has taken years of research, some HORRIBLE experiences, trial and error, and phone conversations with everyone and their mother it seems...

Hopefully that clears up a lot of questions you have. If you have any more I will subscribe to the thread and keep an eye on it. Don't know why I caught it before LOL.



-Devin

 

[slowrider87]

nikita and Devin. thank you both so so much. this info was great! and exactly what i was looking for.

at devin specifically. just a reminder. i'm not building our f23.. that will be pulled and stored. swapping to H22. so parts are way more available.

I had already been looking into dartons, but i was also reading a couple books, about "beefing up the bottom end" the authors are all from sport compact car, and mechanics from high performance shops and whatnot. tons of good info. One of the authors went on for several paragraphs raving over AEBS sleeves (this isn't the only thing i've been reading. I have several books as to find consistencies in opinions and products used and tested)

"The best sleeves, in my opinion, are those made by AEBS. These sleeves feature a thick deck plate built into the sleeve, which solves both the sleeve cracking and any head gasket sealing issues in one easy operation. the deck plate abut eachother and brace against the outer flanges of the block so they can not move (pause quote, a built in block guard as you guys described, continue quote) this gives superior strength to the cylinder wall, lots of clamp area for the head gasket, as well as a load of support, preventing the sleeves from walking around." -Mike Kojima, of Sport Compact Car.
only catch is everything i type in searching for AEBS comes back with Darton products this book was copyrighted in 2003 so companies may have changed or been bought out.

heres a picture of the only "AEBS" labeled sleeves i could find. but no shopping results.

look the same as Dartons anyway.
i like these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270346556681&viewitem=#vi-content

they go on and on about other sleeves too but specified the AEBS as the favorite for boost. still no decision yet. but wanted to add that info for you guys like you did for me! and anyone else getting into this work.

+ Rep for you guys btw. big help! thanks again.

 

[slowrider87]

A small update on progress made too just for fun.

finally got a valve spring compressor added to my tool box, so i was able to get the Head taken apart so it can be taken to the machine shop for a full P&P and 3 angle valve job. just need valves. don't want to reuse the stock ones. gross looking those exhaust ones were.
time for Pictarz!!

Also shaved the VC... a tedious project, but i wanted to try my hand at it. i think i did well. it looks like **** because the paint isn't all gone, but my buddy is sick nasty with an airbrush and offered a free paintjob as his contribution to the project. said he'd do the prepwork himself so i stopped sanding. it's nice and smooth. just needs the finishing sanding before paint.

i told him he knows what my plans are for the car, he knows what i like and the color scheme i'm going for, and i trust some badass artwork from him. so i told him he has free reign over design. can't wait to bring it to him and see what he does with it. i know some people would be worried what they'd end up with. but he's helped me with anything i've done to the car so far no matter big or small, and i've helped with his. so i figure a little bit of his work should be repped under the hood.

 

[x5carl3tMurd3rx]

I wish i was that organized, i kinda have heaps of **** here and there when dismantling engines. Then i have to hunt and find stuff when its time to put it back together.

Good luck !

haha thats how I am too.I always buy bags and **** so I can be organized and never manage to stay organized throughout the entire tear down lol



good info nikita and devin!!! definitely some good info if I decide to sleeve my block down the road.

 

[slowrider87]

haha thats how I am too.I always buy bags and **** so I can be organized and never manage to stay organized throughout the entire tear down lol



good info nikita and devin!!! definitely some good info if I decide to sleeve my block down the road.

keeping organized became an ocd thing durring school. so many of the guys were constantly misplacing things and fu**ing stuff up. so i became the "bagger" so many fewer problems.

as for IF you sleeve your block down the road. i say you make inlinepro resleeve it at a fraction of the cost (if not free) since they over bored your block anyways.

 

[hotaccord243]

Glad I/we could help. I guess I could have looked to see if it was F23 vs an H22. Either way the H22 that you chose is an open deck design.

The plus about going with the H22a4 is that the MID sleeves made by AEBS, Darton, Golden Eagle or Earl are readily available and you don't have to get a block guard or anything because that will bring it to a closed deck block design all in one sleeve while allowing for the coolant passages. This will help with preventing "walking" of the cylinder walls under high boost and is the best option for you.

I have looked at doing the same thing as you and have researched the H22a4 open deck design block for over 2-3 years to learn exactly what I was going to do. It's not that hard and more parts are readily available hence the easier available MID sleeves by almost anyone.

AEBS I also have heard multiple rave reviews on and they are a great product. Remembering back in the research days AEBS as best as I recall was great back in the day and only back in the day. A lot of the books rave about AEBS, but most are out of date before they even hit the shelves.

I just know Darton, Golden Eagle, EarlPerformance, etc. have more specific history and experience with the Sport Compact world it seems than AEBS along with the updated and latest technology vs. AEBS. But no matter which route you choose, all are more than enough for what you are looking for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270346556681&viewitem=#vi-content

Both of ^ are the Darton/AEBS MID (Modular Integrated Design) which eliminates the requirement of a block guard due to the coolant valley flanges that are at the top of the sleeve as I kind of stated in the first part. This is the one down thing about the F23 is that these are not readily available but are for the H22.

*Edit- Benson was the other one that I forgot to list which are excellent also!

 

[2002CG3coupe]

Just curious to know, seeing that you plan on or have order your sleeves already, what pistons and compression rate will you go with?

 

[slowrider87]

Just curious to know, seeing that you plan on or have order your sleeves already, what pistons and compression rate will you go with?

i haven't decided on pistons yet. but i'm looking for 9-9.5:1 compression.

 

[x5carl3tMurd3rx]

keeping organized became an ocd thing durring school. so many of the guys were constantly misplacing things and fu**ing stuff up. so i became the "bagger" so many fewer problems.

as for IF you sleeve your block down the road. i say you make inlinepro resleeve it at a fraction of the cost (if not free) since they over bored your block anyways.

if it wasn't already together and running in the car I would. If I sleeve the block I'd be upgrading rods too and I can't afford that. I was gonna talk to them before I tune it and see if they will replace my block if I have a cylinder wall failure due to their mistake.